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Subject: The China Study
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Author: selfinflicted
Subject: The China Study
Date: 05/16/13 1:40 am

Anybody read this? What are your thoughts

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Author: Vrock
Subject: Re: The China Study
Date: 06/17/13 11:02 am

selfinflicted wrote:
Anybody read this? What are your thoughts

I've read it, great book, a real eye opener. I know there are critics of this book, but like everything controversial, there will always be those that have negative things to say, especially those who cherish eating flesh!

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/19/13 1:32 pm

more like it's a real 'alarmist-eye-opener'. This bastard is using fear mongering to grab people's attention and sell books--the oldest technique known to writing, like the bible.

This POS book that isn't even worthy of wiping your ass. Fuckin retarded doctors and they're 'studies', using 'logic' and 'intellect' to brainwash the masses. They're creating a whole slew of other problems by taking away meat from people's diets.

go read this book if you haven't already, just download it, don't buy it, if you're smart you'll sense the alarmist techniques.

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Author: Vrock
Subject:
Date: 06/20/13 9:00 am

selfinflicted wrote:
more like it's a real 'alarmist-eye-opener'. This bastard is using fear mongering to grab people's attention and sell books--the oldest technique known to writing, like the bible.

This POS book that isn't even worthy of wiping your ass. Fuckin retarded doctors and they're 'studies', using 'logic' and 'intellect' to brainwash the masses. They're creating a whole slew of other problems by taking away meat from people's diets.

go read this book if you haven't already, just download it, don't buy it, if you're smart you'll sense the alarmist techniques.

Wow a little knowledge does indeed breed fear, go ahead and remain ignorant, they did a good job brainwashing you from the first day you began to suck milk from a bottle!

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Author: NUGGET MCNUGGET
Subject:
Date: 06/20/13 9:16 am

Even though your second post suggests you are just baiting and not actually interested in discussing the book with any neutrality or intelligence I'll pretend it was a genuine question and answer it.

I'm conflicted about the book (speaking as someone who has been vegetarian for almost 20 years now and vegan for about half of that time). I think it raises some good points about the relationship between lower levels of meat and dairy and health on a wider level -- but I don't think it provides any solid evidence that a vegan-only diet is the healthiest option.

None of the populations that he studies were 100% vegan, and even if their diets consisted largely of plant-based foods there a case that can be made that with respect to meat, a little goes a long way. B12 deficiency is one of the most serious health problems that vegans encounter, and in populations like the ones studied in the China studied they would not really be at risk of of that deficiency if they ate small amounts of meat.

I think that as far as peer-reviewed science goes the China Study itself has basically been debunked -- but at the same time it's basic premise, that diets significantly lower in animal fats are considerably healthier, has since the book's publication actually become the dominant view in the medical community.

so basically - i think what he is saying is more or less on point, but some of what he uses as evidence doesn't support his overall arguments and also (despite being vegan for animal rights and environmental reasons) i don't think that veganism is a healthier diet than one that its 75-90% vegan but includes small amounts of meat and dairy

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/20/13 12:21 pm

It was a genuine answer.

so why do you flop back and forth between veganism and vegetarianism?

Yeah you're right, they paint this image of veganism being this magic bullet for health and cures all. It's such a load. You can eat just as many trans fats, sugars and high glycemic foods and call yourself vegan. There's a huge difference between a raw vegan and vegan. Raw vegans are the most militant and probably much healthier than most people because they are getting a ton of micronutrients with the exception of b12 and dense protein.

yeah his 'study' does not conclude anything. It's not animal protein or fat that's the problem, it's the crap they're putting in the animals and the stress industrialized farming puts on them.

animal fats are great for the body just the same as coconuts and dark chocolate/cacao are great for the body. that's such a load. Again, countries in africa eat like 75% meat/dairy and they don't have heart attacks really. Its because north americans are consuming shit that spikes our insulin like big gulps and candy bars.

Yeah, like most vegans they mix/confuse morality with nutrition. Groups like Peta will show images of animals being tortured and show stats of health at the same time. That's pure brainwashing or propaganda. The nazi's would show pictures of little german girls waving while printing stuff like 'freedom for germany, stop the foreign invaders'. etc

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/20/13 12:34 pm

Vrock wrote:
selfinflicted wrote:
more like it's a real 'alarmist-eye-opener'. This bastard is using fear mongering to grab people's attention and sell books--the oldest technique known to writing, like the bible.

This POS book that isn't even worthy of wiping your ass. Fuckin retarded doctors and they're 'studies', using 'logic' and 'intellect' to brainwash the masses. They're creating a whole slew of other problems by taking away meat from people's diets.

go read this book if you haven't already, just download it, don't buy it, if you're smart you'll sense the alarmist techniques.

Wow a little knowledge does indeed breed fear, go ahead and remain ignorant, they did a good job brainwashing you from the first day you began to suck milk from a bottle!


ya right 'knowledge'. More like misinformation. This book is like the opposite of the atkins diet, but they both use extremism and alarmism. Atkins wanted you to eat ALL meat, high fat/protein, and NO carbs. that was a load of shit as well, you need a balance of carbs, protein and fat. I think about 45% carbs, 40% protein, 15% Fat. But who really counts the exact amount of macro's they consume? I think you macro/micro nutrients vary from day to day, nothing is exact.

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Author: NUGGET MCNUGGET
Subject:
Date: 06/20/13 2:48 pm

selfinflicted wrote:
It was a genuine answer.

so why do you flop back and forth between veganism and vegetarianism?


i dont. i was vegetarian for about ten years and then have been vegan (still am) for ten years since. no flopping.

[quote="selfinflicted"]

There's a huge difference between a raw vegan and vegan. Raw vegans are the most militant and probably much healthier than most people because they are getting a ton of micronutrients with the exception of b12 and dense protein.
[quote="selfinflicted"]

it is a myth that raw veganism is necessarily a healthier diet. many vegetables are best eaten raw but many are also easiest to digest and healthiest cooked. while some find success from an entirely raw vegan diet it is difficult to maintain and i know of very few people who have managed to stay healthy on a purely raw vegan diet for more than a year. on the other hand, i know a number of very healthy and physically active people who have been vegan for over ten years.


[quote="selfinflicted"] Again, countries in africa eat like 75% meat/dairy
[quote="selfinflicted"]

this is untrue. i guess its technically possible since you didn't specify which countries so maybe there is one or two isolated countries where this is the case (name the countries), but for the most part africa is the continent with the lowest level of meat consumed per capita in the world. so this 75% figure strikes me as complete nonsense. This table here, with data collected from the UN, backs up this point: http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map126_ver5.pdf



[quote="selfinflicted"]
Yeah, like most vegans they mix/confuse morality with nutrition.
[quote="selfinflicted"]

i don't think this is true at all.


selfinflicted wrote:

Groups like Peta will show images of animals being tortured and show stats of health at the same time. That's pure brainwashing or propaganda. The nazi's would show pictures of little german girls waving while printing stuff like 'freedom for germany, stop the foreign invaders'. etc


i agree that peta's tactics are tired and stupid, but not as tired and stupid as comparing things to nazi's.

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/20/13 3:04 pm

MCNUGGET: it is a myth that raw veganism is necessarily a healthier diet. many vegetables are best eaten raw but many are also easiest to digest and healthiest cooked. while some find success from an entirely raw vegan diet it is difficult to maintain and i know of very few people who have managed to stay healthy on a purely raw vegan diet for more than a year. on the other hand, i know a number of very healthy and physically active people who have been vegan for over ten years.


yeah I agree, some things like potatoes and grains obviously require cooking. I was just stating that raw vegans generally have better diets than most other vegans because they are consuming a ton of micronutrients. I hate those vegan types that eat all that fake soy crap and junk food and call themselves nutrition savvy because they carry the label of vegan.

MCNUGGET: this is untrue. i guess its technically possible since you didn't specify which countries so maybe there is one or two isolated countries where this is the case (name the countries), but for the most part africa is the continent with the lowest level of meat consumed per capita in the world. so this 75% figure strikes me as complete nonsense. This table here, with data collected from the UN, backs up this point: http://www.worldmapper.org/posters/worldmapper_map126_ver5.pdf

Yeah I didn't specify which countries, but stats aside, they are hunters and meat eaters for the most part. Just use your logic and think of national geographic films, don't listen to internet studies or any stats that can be skewed, just use logic and you'll find that they eat some fruit and veg and lots of meat. They would have to be constantly foraging for fruit/veg if that was their primary sources of food. People want to have a good meal and then do other things like play sports, create things or have sex. simple carbs from fruit and veg would simply not be a sufficient energy supply, they need meat and starches to be able to go about their day.

Yes it is true that they confuse morality all the time. Everytime I talk to vegans on the net they always call me a murderer, or flesh-eater and all this crap. I try to stick to the topic of nutrition and keeping it natural without supplementation and they keep giving me a song and dance about morality and animal cruelty. It's simply avoidance and dodgy.

and the last comparison was a pretty good comparison, I don't like using the nazi's to compare as i agree it's a tired comparison, but what's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of propaganda? the nazi's were fuckin geniuses at it.

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Author: ixnay
Subject:
Date: 06/21/13 7:14 am

selfinflicted wrote:
Yeah I didn't specify which countries, but stats aside, they are hunters and meat eaters for the most part. Just use your logic and think of national geographic films, don't listen to internet studies or any stats that can be skewed, just use logic and you'll find that they eat some fruit and veg and lots of meat. They would have to be constantly foraging for fruit/veg if that was their primary sources of food.


They still hunt mammoths with wooden spears over there. When will they get with the program, eh?

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Author: NUGGET MCNUGGET
Subject:
Date: 06/21/13 8:50 am

selfinflicted wrote:

Yeah I didn't specify which countries, but stats aside, they are hunters and meat eaters for the most part. Just use your logic and think of national geographic films, don't listen to internet studies or any stats that can be skewed, just use logic and you'll find that they eat some fruit and veg and lots of meat. They would have to be constantly foraging for fruit/veg if that was their primary sources of food. People want to have a good meal and then do other things like play sports, create things or have sex. simple carbs from fruit and veg would simply not be a sufficient energy supply, they need meat and starches to be able to go about their day.


wow. i'm not even sure how to respond to this because i get the feeling that somehow you don't even realize how racist this is. you seem to be presuming that, in the 21st century, africans have never heard of agriculture.

it seems like the "logic" you are trying to appeal to is stereotypes that at best would apply to, as ixnay points out, the stone age. but even THAT is incorrect, because before the invention of animal husbandry or sophisticated weapons for hunting human societies relied primarily on foraging since chasing down an animal on foot (the only way to do it) was WAY more time consuming that digging up tubers. this isn't insignificant either, the vast majority of the history of humans on the planet has been foraging (and therefore following predominantly, but never exclusively, vegetable-based diets)

since you seem to think that your own hazy recollections of national geographic films are more reliable than international studies conducted by a neutral organization, and since you have some weird concept of africa that is more stormfront than science, i think at this point i'm going to withdraw from this conversation.

you say every time you talk to a vegan on the net they call you a murderer, i am a vegan and not calling you a murderer, i'm just pointing out that your arguments are for babies.

to be clear, this isn't because you eat meat, i dont think vegetarians are inherently smarter or better, and i would never suggest someone become one unless they already expressed interest in it.

the basic takeaway point i'm trying to get across is that being vegan can be a very healthy diet if done correctly. like any diet, if done incorrectly, it can be dangerous. it isn't inherently better OR WORSE than any other diet. i think that the evidence does suggest that small amounts of meat and dairy would be beneficial if someone was trying to obtain the absolute optimal diet, but it is not necessary for good health (for most people).

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/22/13 1:08 am

ixnay wrote:
selfinflicted wrote:
Yeah I didn't specify which countries, but stats aside, they are hunters and meat eaters for the most part. Just use your logic and think of national geographic films, don't listen to internet studies or any stats that can be skewed, just use logic and you'll find that they eat some fruit and veg and lots of meat. They would have to be constantly foraging for fruit/veg if that was their primary sources of food.


They still hunt mammoths with wooden spears over there. When will they get with the program, eh?


nah dude they just chuck rocks at raptors do get their protein

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/22/13 1:25 am

NUGGET MCNUGGET wrote:


wow. i'm not even sure how to respond to this because i get the feeling that somehow you don't even realize how racist this is. you seem to be presuming that, in the 21st century, africans have never heard of agriculture.


man, all africans live in the jungle and small tribes, it's proven fact. They communicate with farting noises and grunts and throw dookie around when they're upset.


it seems like the "logic" you are trying to appeal to is stereotypes that at best would apply to, as ixnay points out, the stone age. but even THAT is incorrect, because before the invention of animal husbandry or sophisticated weapons for hunting human societies relied primarily on foraging since chasing down an animal on foot (the only way to do it) was WAY more time consuming that digging up tubers. this isn't insignificant either, the vast majority of the history of humans on the planet has been foraging (and therefore following predominantly, but never exclusively, vegetable-based diets)


ya I don't know why you dumbasses think that I implied that they live in spear chucking tribes, I wasn't talking about the national geographics where they followed around small tribes that do weird drugs from tree bark, I meant like the modern cities and more modern areas where they have slingshots and bows. haha... as if you guys thought that I implied that they're unevolved. My buddy is from Ghana, I just wrote him a business plan.


since you seem to think that your own hazy recollections of national geographic films are more reliable than international studies conducted by a neutral organization, and since you have some weird concept of africa that is more stormfront than science, i think at this point i'm going to withdraw from this conversation.


Nah I'm just saying that the stats you presented can't possibly be accurate... do they go around each square inch of african countries and ask each individual person about their diets and observe their eating habits? I fuckin doubt it.


you say every time you talk to a vegan on the net they call you a murderer, i am a vegan and not calling you a murderer, i'm just pointing out that your arguments are for babies.


So my main argument is that veganism is an incomplete diet because it lacks b12 and you think that's something to smirk at? do you realize the damage a b12 deficiency can do to a baby if the pregnant mother isn't consuming adequate amounts? you're promoting and extremely unhealthy lifestyle and diet that can seriously damage someones brain and body, just for the sake of being kind to animals.


to be clear, this isn't because you eat meat, i dont think vegetarians are inherently smarter or better, and i would never suggest someone become one unless they already expressed interest in it.


vegetarians are smarter than vegans for eating eggs and dairy, but it still doesn't mean they're eating properly either. Titles don't make the person.


the basic takeaway point i'm trying to get across is that being vegan can be a very healthy diet if done correctly. like any diet, if done incorrectly, it can be dangerous. it isn't inherently better OR WORSE than any other diet. i think that the evidence does suggest that small amounts of meat and dairy would be beneficial if someone was trying to obtain the absolute optimal diet, but it is not necessary for good health (for most people).


Yes, it is a terrible diet if you're trying to gain muscle, lead a normal life, reproduce, or give a shit about your muscle tone.
I don't think you and most vegans truly understand the impact of a b12 deficiency. how do you like bleeding gums, nerve damage, accelerated aging, cavities, flabby muscle tone, fatigue? Do you really think a pill is superior or even equal to mother nature's design? Why don't you just take flintstone vitamins while you're at it.

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Author: NUGGET MCNUGGET
Subject:
Date: 06/22/13 2:33 pm

im not going to address any of the africa stuff because you are clearly an ignorant moron.

b12 deficiency is significant, and vegetarian diets are low in b12, and vegan diets have no natural sources of b12. however, cobalamin can be just as easily absorbed through supplementation as it can through diets. many meat eaters are low in b12 also and doctors commonly recommend b12 supplements. as long as vegans remember to take their vitamins, they will not suffer from b12 deficiency. as far as your point about "mother nature's design" i am not a christian, and i believe in something called evolution and not the fairy tale that the earth has been "designed," and so i don't think there is anything wrong with taking synthesized cobalamin.

as far as your other stupid opinions and fairy tales about veganism go, try telling georges laraque, mac danzig, or jake shields that you need meat for muscle building.

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Author: selfinflicted
Subject:
Date: 06/23/13 3:21 pm

NUGGET MCNUGGET wrote:
im not going to address any of the africa stuff because you are clearly an ignorant moron.

b12 deficiency is significant, and vegetarian diets are low in b12, and vegan diets have no natural sources of b12. however, cobalamin can be just as easily absorbed through supplementation as it can through diets. many meat eaters are low in b12 also and doctors commonly recommend b12 supplements. as long as vegans remember to take their vitamins, they will not suffer from b12 deficiency. as far as your point about "mother nature's design" i am not a christian, and i believe in something called evolution and not the fairy tale that the earth has been "designed," and so i don't think there is anything wrong with taking synthesized cobalamin.

as far as your other stupid opinions and fairy tales about veganism go, try telling georges laraque, mac danzig, or jake shields that you need meat for muscle building.


Nah supplementation is a cop out answer. It just signals to me that the diet is incomplete.

You say 'meat eaters' as if every person who consumes meat is health conscious and aware of their vitamin intake. The fact is that at least 95%+ of people in north america have poor diets.

Have you ever heard of phytochemicals? That's why you shouldn't bother with supplements, it's not nearly as good as the real deal. Not to mention that b12 is always consumed with protein in its natural form so it doesn't fully absorb.
And supplements are hard on the liver.

Yeah those MMA guys are sponsored to say that they're vegan and they built their bodies with years of meat eating. Go talk to the champions in MMA like GSP, Jon Jones, Anderson Silva or champions in the Olympics like Usain Bolt, or every My Olympia ever. If there was any sort of advantage to going vegan ALL athletes would do in a heartbeat, especially bodybuilders who would consume motor oil if it meant bigger muscle gains. vegans act like their diet is some sort of underground thing that is kept from the general public, well it's not, it's old news. Countries like India and China didn't chose the vegan lifestyle it's simply because they can't afford to eat as well as we do in north america. You should be so lucky that we live in a commonwealth country where we have the option to eat incredibly well, and yet you chose a peasants diet for morale reasons.

Vegans are so stuck in their narrow box of research and thinking that they simply dismiss outside thinking as if it's illogical.

Think of what's in meat that will give you a strong body: creatine, b12, dense protein, saturated fats, iron, cholesterol.

Theres are abundant in meat sources, impossible or hard to find in plant sources.

Why do you think bodybuilders consume tons of eggs, chicken and red meat? Don't you think if the vegan diet was superior for building muscle they would take that route?

You can name-call like an insecure beta male all you want, but the truth is that my logic holds more ground than your weakling diet plan.

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