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Subject: Feminism in Ottawa
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Author: the frog queen
Subject:
Date: 11/30/07 3:57 pm

merton fink. wrote:
the frog queen wrote:

Have you heard of the MRA? Men's Rights Association?


http://www.mensra.com/

hmm interesting, i'd never heard of this before..

in any case, you can rest assured this group is likely pretty marginal

the frog queen wrote:
To answer your other question I will first stipulate that feminists want equality. We're not looking for superiority. Breaking through unconciously accepted social norms from things like "boy gets tonka truck" & "girl gets baby doll" to things like "man wears had hat, man does not stay home and take care of children". Also the preasures on a man to be uber masculine/macho/insensitive and unemotional.

In my own opinion, I think traditional gender roles affect men & women in pretty negative ways and is part of what has been holding back further equality in the last 20 years. Even tho great progress was made, I always think these sort of unconcious accepted roles hurt us all the most in the long run. Little boys get power tools to play with and little girls get kitchen sets... you these gender roles being enforced in our kids in commercials.


i am in agreement with you about gender roles, tho i'm curious, if you were to ever bear children (whether through submitting to that infernal anachronistic patriarchal institution of marriage or through artificial insemination) and you had a boy and a girl, what kinds of toys would you let each of them play with?


Actually, I'm engaged and fully intend to have children at some point. I would go for the good old fashion fisher price toys. Some of them are gender specific but many of them are not. Also Teddy bears and other stuffed animals are awesome! I was a stuffed animal nut as a kid and had dogs, cats, dinosaurs, teddies..etc. I think they really great since boys and girls enjoy playing with them without picking up any "learned" gender behaviour from the toy.

You can get these awesome little animal toys at mrs tillywinkles!! oh my god , I would have killed for those as a child!! There are tons of options out there , you just got to look for them. But I'm still a big kid and love toys so I tend to see the options more-so than others.

My kids are totally getting a club-house also!
_________________
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Author: ARYEH
Subject:
Date: 11/30/07 6:58 pm

Computer_Boy wrote:
hey aryeh, is this feminism?



Can You prove, right now, that in that specific picture, that those two Women were forced to wear Burkas?


Who are You to say fuck allabout what someone choses to wear for him or her self?
_________________
I am pleased that you have found some benefit to what Allah has given me.

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Author: merton fink.
Subject:
Date: 11/30/07 10:24 pm

the frog queen wrote:
merton fink. wrote:

i am in agreement with you about gender roles, tho i'm curious, if you were to ever bear children (whether through submitting to that infernal anachronistic patriarchal institution of marriage or through artificial insemination) and you had a boy and a girl, what kinds of toys would you let each of them play with?


Actually, I'm engaged and fully intend to have children at some point. I would go for the good old fashion fisher price toys. Some of them are gender specific but many of them are not. Also Teddy bears and other stuffed animals are awesome! I was a stuffed animal nut as a kid and had dogs, cats, dinosaurs, teddies..etc. I think they really great since boys and girls enjoy playing with them without picking up any "learned" gender behaviour from the toy.

You can get these awesome little animal toys at mrs tillywinkles!! oh my god , I would have killed for those as a child!! There are tons of options out there , you just got to look for them. But I'm still a big kid and love toys so I tend to see the options more-so than others.

My kids are totally getting a club-house also!


Poppycock! Stuffed animals are a tool of Patriarchy!

Don't you see? The stuffed animal works two-fold:

1) It teaches dependency. At a young age (maybe under 3-4), it gives the child a sense of security when sleeping alone. This, I am not entirely opposed to, because the rigours of modern life mean mommy and daddy can't be sleeping with baby every night, like they did back in Cave Man times. They need to get up and go to work at 8 AM. But if we don't pry those children away from their stuffed toys at some point, we will coddle them into a false sense of security. At some point, children need to learn the cold hard fact that at some point, mommy and daddy could be dead, their house could be incinerated by the A-bomb, and their very survival could depend on not panicking in a fit of delerium every time an owl hoots as they sleep, curled up next to a tree stump alone, in the Northern Ontario wilderness.

2) It teaches children to nurture stuffed animals, in preparation for their roles as parents, so that one day they too can become over-bearing parents and perpetuate this cycle of eternal coddling. This I am categorically opposed to.

I mean really, aren't "teddies" just another kind of "dolly"? If you will, an anthropomorphized doll? (look it up)

secondly, a club house would be pretty cool. or a tree house!
_________________
HYPERMASCULINE!

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Author: the frog queen
Subject:
Date: 11/30/07 11:37 pm

merton fink. wrote:
the frog queen wrote:
merton fink. wrote:

i am in agreement with you about gender roles, tho i'm curious, if you were to ever bear children (whether through submitting to that infernal anachronistic patriarchal institution of marriage or through artificial insemination) and you had a boy and a girl, what kinds of toys would you let each of them play with?


Actually, I'm engaged and fully intend to have children at some point. I would go for the good old fashion fisher price toys. Some of them are gender specific but many of them are not. Also Teddy bears and other stuffed animals are awesome! I was a stuffed animal nut as a kid and had dogs, cats, dinosaurs, teddies..etc. I think they really great since boys and girls enjoy playing with them without picking up any "learned" gender behaviour from the toy.

You can get these awesome little animal toys at mrs tillywinkles!! oh my god , I would have killed for those as a child!! There are tons of options out there , you just got to look for them. But I'm still a big kid and love toys so I tend to see the options more-so than others.

My kids are totally getting a club-house also!


Poppycock! Stuffed animals are a tool of Patriarchy!

Don't you see? The stuffed animal works two-fold:

1) It teaches dependency. At a young age (maybe under 3-4), it gives the child a sense of security when sleeping alone. This, I am not entirely opposed to, because the rigours of modern life mean mommy and daddy can't be sleeping with baby every night, like they did back in Cave Man times. They need to get up and go to work at 8 AM. But if we don't pry those children away from their stuffed toys at some point, we will coddle them into a false sense of security. At some point, children need to learn the cold hard fact that at some point, mommy and daddy could be dead, their house could be incinerated by the A-bomb, and their very survival could depend on not panicking in a fit of delerium every time an owl hoots as they sleep, curled up next to a tree stump alone, in the Northern Ontario wilderness.

2) It teaches children to nurture stuffed animals, in preparation for their roles as parents, so that one day they too can become over-bearing parents and perpetuate this cycle of eternal coddling. This I am categorically opposed to.

I mean really, aren't "teddies" just another kind of "dolly"? If you will, an anthropomorphized doll? (look it up)

secondly, a club house would be pretty cool. or a tree house!



hahaha. Thats fucking hilarious ! next you'll be telling me that children with stuffed animals develop a species identity crisis.
_________________
crack don't smoke itself

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http://www.myspace.com/deathmarchrecords

http://www.myspace.com/psychichotlineband

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Author: Computer_Boy
Subject:
Date: 11/30/07 11:51 pm

ARYEH wrote:
Computer_Boy wrote:
hey aryeh, is this feminism?



Can You prove, right now, that in that specific picture, that those two Women were forced to wear Burkas?


Who are You to say fuck allabout what someone choses to wear for him or her self?


I can't prove that those women were forced to wear those things any more than you can prove that they are in fact women.
But thats not what I asked you...

I wanna know whether you, or anyone else for that matter, thinks that burkas are a way of ensuring equality between the two sexes. That being one of the dominant arguments as to why women should wear them.

I'm sure you can guess what my view is on this matter, but I wanna know what you think!


Last edited by Computer_Boy on 12/01/07 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total.

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Author: the frog queen
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 12:10 am

I have to say the burka thing bothers me.. for obvious reasons.. but then again, it bothers me that women in our country can be persecuted for wearing them, as if they are part of some problem. Tolerance in our country to accept these customs are greatly needed until the bigger problem, religion is somewhat cured... which probably never will be.. *sigh*
_________________
crack don't smoke itself

http://www.deathmarchrecords.blogspot.com

http://www.myspace.com/deathmarchrecords

http://www.myspace.com/psychichotlineband

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Author: Computer_Boy
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 1:09 am

the frog queen wrote:
I have to say the burka thing bothers me.. for obvious reasons.. but then again, it bothers me that women in our country can be persecuted for wearing them, as if they are part of some problem. Tolerance in our country to accept these customs are greatly needed until the bigger problem, religion is somewhat cured... which probably never will be.. *sigh*


Way off topic, but how are burka-ers 'persecuted' in Canada?

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Author: the frog queen
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 1:12 am

Computer_Boy wrote:
the frog queen wrote:
I have to say the burka thing bothers me.. for obvious reasons.. but then again, it bothers me that women in our country can be persecuted for wearing them, as if they are part of some problem. Tolerance in our country to accept these customs are greatly needed until the bigger problem, religion is somewhat cured... which probably never will be.. *sigh*


Way off topic, but how are burka-ers 'persecuted' in Canada?


not neccessarily burkas and only burkas, but didn't you hear about the huge quebec controversey about girls in school wearing the hijab or other face coverings?? huge controversy.
_________________
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http://www.deathmarchrecords.blogspot.com

http://www.myspace.com/deathmarchrecords

http://www.myspace.com/psychichotlineband

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Author: Jim Sharpe
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 1:58 am

the frog queen wrote:
I have to say the burka thing bothers me.. for obvious reasons.. but then again, it bothers me that women in our country can be persecuted for wearing them, as if they are part of some problem. Tolerance in our country to accept these customs are greatly needed until the bigger problem, religion is somewhat cured... which probably never will be.. *sigh*


oh come on, dont bring religion into this mess of a thread.

lets get back on topic people. the better bra to burn? WonderBra or Victoria's Secret?

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Author: LeCoach
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 2:37 am

best toys for kids = bag o' nails and invisble pedestrian.
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Author: xpetalsfallenx
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 3:54 am

lekate wrote:
wouldn't the gender roles we force upon children affect little boys more than little girls? just because it was socially acceptable for me as a child to follow the boys in the neighbourhood and get all muddy, but I'm sure as hell people would've looked at my brother funny if he got into my dolls and "girly toys"...

Yes and no. Allowing girls to act like boys seems progressive and to a degree it is. But not allowing a boy to act like a girl shows that this progression falls well short of where feminists want it to be. Boy's are not "allowed" to act like girls because, for the boy, that would be taking a lesser role (girls' roles are seen as less valuable than boys' roles). The end result is that while women seem to be allowed to take on (some) male roles, male and female roles are still separated and male roles are valued more highly than female roles; and more specifically, the separation of males and females and the value of the male over the female.

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Author: FTW
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 10:39 am

leave it to liberal middle class suburbanite westerners to want to let everyone else know that women truly know what's up over here. I'll tell you right now women from other countries do not envy you in the least with your rights to sleep around, kill your kids or if you keep them pay someone else to raise them when you pursue your career. Western capitalistic society is at best a total fucking joke and it's that same materialistic outlook on life that keeps you all fighting for a slice of the pie.
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Author: Trev
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 12:01 pm

the frog queen wrote:

not neccessarily burkas and only burkas, but didn't you hear about the huge quebec controversey about girls in school wearing the hijab or other face coverings?? huge controversy.


You mean like the soccer and judo tournaments where the girls who were wearing hijab weren't allowed to play?

This isn't "persecution". Basically the girl was breaking the uniform rules, and was trying to claim a special privilege based on religion. The referee made the proper decision by not discriminating based on religion (ie if a non religious person tried to break the uniform rules in soccer or especially judo, there's no way they'd be allowed, so believing in god shouldn't allow you to do it either).

Actual instances of discrimination are when people are denied rights or ostracized. I'm thinking of profiling, where people say all Muslims are terrorists, and because of this they get treated like terrorists even if they have nothing to do with it, like Maher Arar.

These two situations are extremely different though, and I see a tendancy, especially on the Left and among liberal relativists these days, to blanket defend religious special privilege, especially when its a minority religion, and claim that denying special privilege is a form of discrimination or racism, which is ridiculous and really shows the poverty of left-wing thought and action these days.

As for burkas, men don't force women to wear them. That's not why they're worn in some countries by some women. Women wear them because of religion. They're not being oppressed by the men around them, they're being oppressed by god (and in this case god as conceived by a man 1400 years ago).
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Author: engallop
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 7:02 pm

FTW wrote:
Western capitalistic society is at best a total fucking joke and it's that same materialistic outlook on life that keeps you all fighting for a slice of the pie.


this is a real disaster of a sentence.

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Author: merton fink.
Subject:
Date: 12/01/07 7:19 pm

xpetalsfallenx wrote:
lekate wrote:
wouldn't the gender roles we force upon children affect little boys more than little girls? just because it was socially acceptable for me as a child to follow the boys in the neighbourhood and get all muddy, but I'm sure as hell people would've looked at my brother funny if he got into my dolls and "girly toys"...

Yes and no. Allowing girls to act like boys seems progressive and to a degree it is. But not allowing a boy to act like a girl shows that this progression falls well short of where feminists want it to be. Boy's are not "allowed" to act like girls because, for the boy, that would be taking a lesser role (girls' roles are seen as less valuable than boys' roles). The end result is that while women seem to be allowed to take on (some) male roles, male and female roles are still separated and male roles are valued more highly than female roles; and more specifically, the separation of males and females and the value of the male over the female.


as i see it we could look at it a couple of ways:

1) the masculine indentity/role we assign boys, (and all the qualities, characteristics, ideals, values, etc therein) are the only "true"/"valid" qualities, characteristics, ideals, values etc. that exist for all humans because they embody some noble qualities that transcend the gender divide. Every quality, characteristic, ideal, values we've assigned to girls is, in actuality, an attitude of servitude and basically female identity can be reduced to a slave mentality. Therefore, since boys are in the position of power and femininity is the state of lacking power, girls should strive to rise up and be like boys.

2) the masculine identity/"role" is patriarchal, aggressive, destructive, oppressive, all around "bad", there is nothing virtuous about masculinity therefore we need to effeminize males and make them fall more in line with the feminine identity (seems to me kinda like what the frog queen was suggesting?)

3) masculine/feminine qualities are both good and bad, so ideally we should synthesize both into ONE gender of androgynous humans who reflect the good and bad in both constructs of identity
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